That’s a simplistic view of how power works in the world. You might not care what Russia thinks about their little neighbour joining an alliance with a large military, but Russia do.
Ohhhhhhh Krill. I think you’re wrong but have to run. Will answer soon…
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Putin thought that the invasion of Ukraine would probably only take a matter of weeks and he’d be in charge. With a few pockets of resistance to keep mopping up. It’s very embarrassing for him right now.
Remember that when Hitler invaded Poland (with Russia) and some people were saying just let him have it and he’ll stop there.
Also by saying that a lot of Ukraines don’t care about being a part of NATO, a lot of Russian’s want a better relationship with the west and rid of Putin. Of course they can only say this in private or anonymously (apart from a few brave people who then get sent off to do hard labour for years).
If Russia had legitimate elections (it’s the election thread) the results would reflect this. As with Brexit … 51.89% for Leave to 48.11% for Remain … not the outright landslide some people have you believe, if that result was an election (it’s the election thread) it would of been a hung parliament. While Brexit passed, the vote shows almost half wanted to stay, as a legitimate Russian vote would show large portions of the population want big changes and not to go backwards.
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You know I know that
I’ve got work to crack on with, I’ll reply to these points properly later. I think you are right though - if there were fair elections, and the Russian media wasn’t so tightly controlled, we might see some real change in Russia. But there aren’t and the media is tightly controlled against dissent, so here we are. Wishing things doesn’t change how you deal with reality.
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As a sidenote to this clip, they’re having a debate on Five Live about giving 16 year olds the vote at the moment.
“They don’t understand life/how things work/they don’t understand the consequences of their vote” etc etc etc.
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Understand that Russia has behaved belligerently with openly imperialistic designs for nigh on 200 years now. Putin has openly stated he wants all the ex-Soviet states returned to the motherland and, unfortunately, the only thing that Putin/Russia understands or responds to is strength.
NATO is a defence alliance and will never attack first - the whole reason it exists is mostly to stop Russia taking the piss. This is crucially important to understand. No country in NATO wants Russia or will invade/attack it with the intention of taking it over.
Wanting better access to the Black Sea is not a problem you solve by invading the country that owns that shoreline.
I’ve posted this before but Kaja Kallas (Estonian PM) puts Russia’s negotiation tactics beautifully:
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There is an opinion that Putin is great and these countries should just put up and shut up though.
I mentioned in another thread about a mates mate who I had a barny with at work and he wants to try and give me a kicking. He’s clueless of course but his GF is Russian and is pro Putin so he just blindly thinks Putin is in the right and fuck these little guys. You’d think he had some real intel into Russian politics but no, they know less than most.
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of course not on here, we’re essentially an echo chamber.
I mean general public. It’s the same people that have ill thought out ideas about immigration, the homeless, workshy folk, benefits, the people that are falling for the age old teachings of Punching down by the tories. Like we have said before on here, yes they’re there but they are a smaller portion than we think. The facts are in Reform and other right wing party votes/seats. But they are out there and I was pointing out that this one in particular has direct contact with Russian opinion and yet they still don’t have a clue on the truth. Some people are taught to hate very early and any common sense and empathy disappears.
One of the things I hate in all of this is with the US republican (media, voters and politicians) who see Biden’s support of Ukraine as a problem and cozy up to Putin because of the ultra partisan nature of US politics.
Bet you’d never have guessed that in 2024 American patriots would be siding with Russians
NATO is a defence alliance and will never attack first - the whole reason it exists is mostly to stop Russia taking the piss. This is crucially important to understand. No country in NATO wants Russia or will invade/attack it with the intention of taking it over.
I think there is a disconnect in how NATO views itself and it’s ambitions, and how the Russian leadership views NATO and it’s ambitions. We are looking at it through the lens of cooperation and peace keeping, and they are looking at it as an extension of US military force - a force they view as bringing it’s weapons strategically closer and closer to Russia’s borders. I
This is a an interesting read, especially when you get to 2001 in the timeline:
peep the bit about the relationship with the George Bush administration, and then how that relationship changed after the US pulled out of the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty.
Wanting better access to the Black Sea is not a problem you solve by invading the country that owns that shoreline.
I agree, but Russia doesn’t. They don’t care about Ukrainian sovereignty if that sovereignty is going to pal up with NATO, who they see is a threat for the reasons I’ve stated above.
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Fair enough but we seem to be all on the right side of the tracks here… we argue semantics often but we can often mean the same thing or mean similar.
Unfortunately none of us are above the brainwashing nature of social media making all just argue and feel like we’re more correct than the other.
The way you, I and others nature get heated quickly shows that.
The fact Putin has had to lie about the reasons for going to war, sorry a ‘special military operation’ shows that there probably wouldn’t be the support for it in Russia that we all think? Even banning the words ‘war’ and ‘invasion’ from any Russian news sources.
We’ve seen men fleeing in their thousands before they could be conscripted too, because as Russians they don’t want to be involved. Putin knows he has to hide the truth for a reason, no?
I hope people realise that I’m not here defending what is going on right now in Ukraine. It’s a fucking tragedy. I just think it’s important to try and understand why.
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Yeah, I suppose where I differ is that you seem to be hinting that there was a way to deal with Putin that didn’t lead to this outcome or something very much like it. I’m unconvinced to say the least.
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See, you’re taking it personally. We are constantly arguing and not seeing each others points even when we are close to being on the same page. We have been here many times me and you and why we both had a break from here. Lets not kid ourselves. None of us on here are more correct than the other, ever, we’re just bald people fighting over a comb.
So, all I was saying is that on here, This forum, We are on the same side and we vary in knowledge and can find ourselves arguing details over full blown right/left opinions. And we all think we’re more right than the other. I’m fucking fucking doing right now haha.
Anyway, holds out hand in truce
I thought the same very early on and the answer is no, the moral high ground has totally vanished. People might not like to hear it but it’s still true.
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I think the way to do that would have been for Ukraine to have remained a neutral buffer zone and have no ambitions or incentive to join NATO. This would have been less than ideal for what a sizable percentage of Ukrainians wanted, but it would beat having their country destroyed like it is now. That ship has sailed though.
I agree, no one normal wants to be involved in a war. The ties between the two countries would have made declaring all out war deeply unpopular. Many families have relatives in each country - a Ukrainian gran, a russian cousin etc. It’s like Ireland/Scotland/Wales and England.
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Ok, cool!
Can we agree on something though? That maybe both of our text looks/seems more emotional that it actually is? Because i’m always chilled and half joking to be honest and so say you, so it’s probably all good.
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