I think people like that, their days are numbered now thank god
For sure. Going forward isn’t always going to be as easy as it should be. At least we have have a starting point. We don’t want this to be another false start like so many in the past that promised change.
Actually, thinking of this line (which you said in reference to statues being pulled down); what if this whole Netflix takedown of shows featuring black face characters (even if they were just meant to be these otherworldly beings, rather than depictions of black people) is also just a simple way of distracting people into thinking that Netflix is actually doing something rather than changing one bit?
I mean, they’ve deleted a couple of shows and have re-upped ‘13’.
They deleted shows and re-up shows all the time.
What’s the fucking difference here?
Maybe it is virtue signalling after all @BvS
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It’s the same here in Ayrshire and as we have a load of auld folk I doubt we will see any statues being taking down, streets being renamed or even plaques being added to acknowledge these issues. I have seen a few petitions going so hopefully I am proven wrong on the matter. Someone wrote cunt on the Cromwell wall (citadel) a couple years ago here and the orange order had a mad circle jerk hissy fit over it.
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Citadel used to be a bit of a spot.
Hopefully Robert Burns wasn’t a wrong 'un.
I mean the swimming pool next to that big wall.
Aye that’s the one. The couple of spots at the citadel swimming pool aint really skate able anymore or were torn down. I think Burns was offered a job in a plantation in Jamaica but turned it down. All I really know about Rabbie Burns is that he was a mad shagger and that tourists will pay over the odds for anything with his face on it.
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The last people executed for homosexuality in England were hanged in 1835. It was prison sentences and later fines (Oscar Wilde, John Gielgud etc.). Punishment by death was ended in 1861. Obviously the atmosphere was still generally intolerant, but there were growing calls for change from the 1950s with organisations like the Homosexual Law Reform Society.
Wasn’t the Liverpool building a student halls? Totally the correct thing to do if so. Imagine how a black student might feel on being told they’re going to love in a building names after a man whose family were big slave owners.
Also, Columbus did enslave Some of the native populations of central and southern America when he went on his conquering spree in the name of the Spanish. The near eradication of the native peoples from the Caribbean is also why he’s a hugely controversial figure.
So still punishable by death at one point. Valid. They were given a choice between imprisonment and probation. Probation was usually injections, that would reduce the man’s testosterone and leave them impotent iirc.
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Chemical castrations, the man who broke the German WW2 codes Alan Turing forced by his own government to have this horrific treatment which led to his suicide.
Fucking disgraceful
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My point is more about this moral piety towards figures for their past that cannot answer for their crimes as they are long dead. It all feels misplaced and an easy scapegoat which allows people to feel that they have fought for justice when all they are actually doing is erasing British history. It doesn’t allow for people to understand the context in which these circumstances occurred,
Should we apply the same discerning fervour towards current figures? Are we going to stop doing business with companies that do not pay tax, like Amazon or Starbucks? Are we going keep buying products from companies that use exploitative labour practices like Primark? Are we going to buy products from companies that destroy small-scale agriculture in the developing world like Monsanto? Are we happy that the UK sells arms to repressive regimes like Saudi Arabia? Are we going to buy products from companies that have funded fascist regimes like Texaco?
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I mean, yes we should ideally. We should work towards all of these, even if practically they’re unobtainable. I think that was your point though?
I think the ‘erasing history’ argument is bollocks to be honest. The history books are still there, so too the archives. What this action shows is that history is a live process. We can atone for the past and make a Britain which is nicer to live in the present. But I take your point that this has become a bit of a sideshow to a bigger process of decolonising Britain and removing institutional racism. But removing statues and celebrations of past British racists is part of that process.
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I disagree with that, I think that removing statues just makes people feel like they’re doing something virtuous because it looks so symbolic.
I’d much rather see something done to address the studies that show equally qualified black people are much less likely to be promoted than white counterparts for example, something that could really help people in the near future.
I agree that it is becoming a sideshow that does not really tackle institutional racism. I support the idea of decolonisation. For example, it would be a good idea to return a lot of artefacts that were ‘expropriated’ and are currently on show in the British museum. We could get rid of the idea of ‘British’ equating to Empire and pillaging.
I do not like the idea that we have to remove all references to prominent historical figures who do not fit with our present 21st century values of equality and diversity. It feels faddish and a bit like cultural vandalism. What do we replace them with? Figures of multicultural life in 21st century?
I like the idea of the statues still being there for history, but being tastefully defaced or modified in some way. E.g. leave the statue up but cut off their hands or nose. Or make them hold some chains or a whip or edit the facial expression or something. It adds some symbolism and context, the person is no longer worshipped as a high level human but their accomplishments can still be recognised.
It’s a similar idea to the old Greek/Roman statues where everyone had a micro-dongs. (Although that’s slightly more complicated as body values were different then. It’s actually quite interesting)
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nah don’t agree with that. loads of stuff in the british museum (or museums in general) would be lost or destroyed if they’d be left where they were. most of our museums are free and aim to educate which is one of the best parts of history
big penises were associated with stupidity, barbarianism and sex. people who wanted statues of themselves would’ve wanted to be seen as wise and above simple carnal pleasures and emotions
the one that always makes me laugh is the Vatican in the 1500s being ashamed of all the penises on display around Italy and demanding that they be chiselled off of statues or covered with metal fig leaves. it’s no wonder Catholics are seen as repressed and sexually ashamed
