Don’t worry Max, not all of us on here will assume bad intent from your comments.
It’s intriguing to me how much of a hot potato this topic is - at the slightest hint of supposed “wrongthink” people clamber over one another to put you in your place and take the moral high ground by labelling you a bigot.
The irony of championing diversity without exception, unless of course it’s diversity of thought or opinion….
You’re right in a way, I caught it and thought “that’s a bit misjudged” but felt it wasn’t what was meant so yeah, it needs to be called out for future correction but not necessarily lambasted.
It does make me wonder why you in particular parped up when this was mentioned if you do not have an issue with this in particular?
Thanks, but it was pretty well handled above. People gave him a bit of a call out and then explained why it was wrong.
Done.
No one did this.
No one did this.
I feel like Max gets smashed on here sometimes - I didn’t know there was a rule about posting old footage under someone else’s old name. It’s just their body of work.
I don’t give a fuck what anyone does, doesn’t affect me, but when someone gets something wrong around a social issue, I feel everyone jumps on Max’s back in particular.
Is that not calling him a bigot in a back handed way?
Agreed Max does get put through the grinder sometimes
But I can’t think of an instance where he’s purposefully been malicious. So everyone please bear this in mind.
Yep, some loose words and opinions get called out and some rightly so as anyone should but some people jump on based on previous judgments. I guess it’s hard to give people the level playing field when you have made your mind up about someone.
I try personally but it’s hard with certain people. (not talking about Max here)
Regardless of gender, anyone making that trick look so good is stunning to watch. Seen a few clips here and there.
This is what I mean. I saw that clip and was like that’s fucking hard, I would love to be able to do that, gender didn’t even come into it in my head.
I just read some of the answers to Max and it comes across brutal to me sometimes when he doesn’t seem malicious to me - maybe, funnily enough, he might not know everything about trans people and the faux par in sharing old footage.
Thanks for the genuine curiosity as to why I’m interested in this particular topic.
Long story short, I was volunteering at a homeless charity for young people, 16-25 year old rough sleepers, and being based in Brighton meant that we had a higher-than-average representation of LGBT+ folks using the service.
Having volunteered my time there for close to 3 years, I’d like to think that everyone there, staff and service users, knew that I am not a bigot nor am I prejudiced or a bad person per se, however one afternoon the topic of ‘trans athletes’ was being discussed and, when asked to give my opinion about a particular surfer who won in both the male and female contest that weekend, I didn’t agree with the general consensus and, seeing as I’d been asked to share my opinion, I did so, in as calm and reasonable a way as possible, only to be met with furious indignation and predictable accusations of transphobia levelled at me.
It seems that this particular topic promotes the idea that binary thinking when it comes to sex is preposterous, despite biology clearly proving otherwise, and that the fiercest proponents of this school of thought are indeed the most binary in their logic when it comes to discussing this: agree with me on this topic, or you are a nazi.
I am fundamentally against this way of thinking - anything that just shuts down a conversation in such an authoritarian manner isn’t progressive, and as a result of this whole conversation at the charity I felt pretty down and isolated, and chose to leave my position there as a result.
Adding salt to the wounds was other members of staff approaching me after the fact to let me know that they felt I was perfectly reasonable and that they happened to agree with me, but felt as though saying so in that moment would’ve potentially jeopardised their career.
So now, whenever I witness a similar situation playing out, I make a point of saying “Hey just so you know not everyone thinks you’re a Michael Fabricant” because I could’ve really done with that at the time.
I think it’s important to allow people to discuss topics freely, I don’t happen to agree with the relatively recent idea that you can expect to live your life without ever being offended, and happen to think that exposure to opposing views / beliefs is critical when it comes to understanding the wider world and democratic functionality.
Sorry for the novel but felt that a proper response was called for
There is clearly huge problems in gender issues regarding sport and any sort of competing for where one initial sex has dominated certain levels of performance over time. There is no way either side can win in this, there needs to be a truce and a new approach. No answers here.
I think the main problem is that people are pushed to the far ends of opinion and there are extremes on both sides who have axes to grind who spoil it for the people who have real issues and questions. There is a centre where everyone can just get the fuck on and take people as they come. In this day and age, the only thing people should be judged on is whether they are a Michael Fabricant or not. Disrespect for others, bigotry and general negative, manipulative and nasty behavior is rampant and sometimes applauded and looked up to but they are on both sides. Nothing will get fixed until the fringe fanatics on both sides calm down.
Exactly this , and it’s in every aspect of life , it’s what sucks about society at the moment as those elements are doing a great job at dividing and turning people against each other . It ain’t going away so we just got to be able to spot it and rise above it all
Couldn’t agree more.
Giving people the benefit of the doubt does more good than assuming bigotry ever will.
What gives you the right to announce the conversation as “Done” ?
Had the conversation just stopped there as you had hoped then none of the subsequent common ground found above would’ve happened - Im curious to hear why that would be considered a better outcome?
A fairly textbook example of exactly what I was talking about when it comes to conversation-stifling on gender issues, see “thought-terminating clichés”
He’s a mod
Ha fair enough, I guess I meant in the more real-world sense…
Well, it’s not really ‘done’ is it?
Some really good points have been brought up here (and that’s what places like this are for, right?!). Personally I am well behind on this whole subject but eager to learn more
As you were!
Not sure I agree with ‘preposterous’ here. There are clearly ways that people don’t fit within rigid classifications of sex - intersex, trans people, Caster Semenya etc. - and I think these challenge the idea that sex is simply binary.
But, I think you are right, this more fluid situation does clearly pose a problem for sporting competitions that have been traditionally organised along ‘sex is binary’ lines. I am really unsure what the solution is.
Could you provide details for this? Why would a trans athlete enter both male and women’s competitions on the same weekend? Seems odd they would let her do that. Surfer Sasha Jane Lowerson won a female title three years after having won the male title in the same competition. Is this who you mean?
Isn’t that just forwarding this lazy idea of a ‘snowflake generation’? Why can’t young people push back and advocate for causes they believe in? We had second-wave feminism and gay rights, seems like young people are just continuing this tradition.
Not being a surfer myself I wasn’t aware of who exactly was being discussed - I was part of the conversation about a surfer who had won both the male and female contests and it was being reported on that weekend, so potentially yes this Sasha could likely be the person in question.
All I said was that I felt it would be fairest for all involved if there was a “trans” category to accommodate for trans athletes… as the physical advantages afforded to biological males are well documented.
The response I got was “You mean like the special olympics?!” - insinuating that I was likening transness to a disability, when in fact I was just suggesting that maybe it’s not particularly fair on women to have to accept males in their spaces.
The irony here is that second-wave feminism, female emancipation and the gay rights movement all fought incredibly hard to procure the rights for women and minorities in society/professional spaces/contests/etc.
I think there’s a strong case for the argument that biological men now having access to previously woman-only spaces is actually causing more harm than good for women /gender minorities, and affording trans people the privilege of entering women-only contests/spaces is the opposite of the progress made towards gender equality.
But that’s just my opinion, I’d be keen to hear why you may think I’m wrong.
And to address your final point about a “snowflake generation” - personally I don’t think there’s much utility in identity politics.
Intersectionality seems to promote the idea that the world is absolutely racist, homophobic, transphobic, etc. when in actuality there has never been a better time in human history to be any of the above.
That’s not to say racism/sexism/all the isms do not exist, it’s just important to remember that there has never been a more tolerant society in recorded history than the one we live in now, and focusing on all the ways in which one CAN be discriminated against seems to reinforce the notion that you will infact be held back by your identity, inevitably, due to societal prejudices, whilst in reality I think the majority of people don’t give a flying fuck whether you are gay or straight, black or white, male or female or trans - most reasonable people are much more inclined to judge you on whether or not you are a decent person and that is exactly how the world should be.
Just my two cents
…and finally, apologies, I forgot to address your point regarding intersex / people who don’t fit gender binary descriptions.
Google seems to point towards there being slightly less than 2% of the adult population who are affected by this:
“Intersex people are born with sex characteristics (such as sexual anatomy, reproductive organs, hormonal patterns and/or chromosomal patterns) that do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies. Experts estimate that up to 1.7 percent of the population are born with intersex traits.”
I agree that accommodation for people categorised as such is important, but I would argue that the needs of women (49% of the population) shouldn’t necessarily be infringed upon to satisfy the 2%…
Hence why I believe a separate category in sports contests for all those who don’t fit either the “male” or “female” category may be the most appropriate solution
