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9123

Could you present evidence to support this ‘strong case’? Because, taking the toilet issue as an example, there have not been a wave of assaults in the, now many, years in which trans women have been allowed to use women’s toilets. A lot of the discourse around this subject seems very sensationalist, and I sometimes feel women’s voices are lost. There is a minority of gender-critical women online who monopolise the subject, but a lot of young women seem to support trans people having access to women’s spaces.

I do agree that sport is a very tricky issue to navigate, but I side with your colleagues in that a separate category for trans athletes does not feel like an adequate solution.

You made a Freudian slip here - you mean it’s a good time to be gay, not a good time to be homophobic.

As for that most tolerant time ever idea, maybe - how on earth do we measure tolerance through time?! - but I still think people should stand up for things they believe in. Why should they become complacent? Especially when they are faced with the victories of reactionary right-wingers in politics.

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9124

ey thanks for taking the time to respond to all of that. i started writing an essay in response and then just deleted it all because i didn’t want this conversation to continue. everything you wrote is on point. i feel like all of the arguments against trans-inclusion are really sensationalist

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9125

Can we go back to talking about how wack someone’s arms look on a 50 stair back smith now?

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9126

I guess “well done” for pointing out my supposed Freudian slip… it’s clear what was meant by ‘any of the above’, but thanks for intentionally misrepresenting my ideas and insinuating that my inner homophobe can’t help but slip out.

Responses such as these is why it almost always excruciating to attempt to have this conversation…

It seems that no matter how reasonable the critique, no matter how good faith your argument is, there’s always someone in a rush to equate your criticism of an idea with some type of ‘phobia’.

It’s lazy. And boring… it only serves to further drive a wedge between people on opposite sides of the topic, and falsely accusing people of transphobia/homophobia/etc does nothing to support your argument, it simply highlights the fact that (personal insults aside) perhaps you have little else of value to bring to the discussion.

In response to “How do we measure tolerance through time?!” - I don’t know exactly, but I’d start by asking the question “What metric isn’t better today than it was say 20/50/100/500 years ago?”

Just for starters:
DEI is at the forefront of almost all company policy these days.
Laws are in place to prevent discrimination across the board when it comes to hiring, representation and the like.
Further laws are being drawn up regularly in an attempt to tackle hate speech, in person and online, not to mention global movements such as ‘The Modern Slavery Act’ and ‘Black Lives Matter’ doing all they can to stamp out any persisting remnants of historical inequality.
Concepts such as ‘No Blacks No Dogs No Irish’ seem unfathomable by today’s standards… so yeah, I’d confidently say that there has never been a more tolerant time in human history. I guess the metric I would use to prove this point would be personal rights/ legal freedoms.

“Were I born a woman presently, would I have more personal rights / legal freedoms afforded to me now, or fewer?”

Obviously you can switch the word woman out accordingly and the logic still stands.

Clearly there has never been any other period in history where you would’ve been granted more rights as a minority/female/trans/POC than presently.

Perhaps you have another metric which you would prefer to offer up instead of personal rights / legal freedoms?

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9127

“I do agree that sport is a very tricky issue to navigate, but I side with your colleagues in that a separate category for trans athletes does not feel like an adequate solution.”

You would side with ‘some’ of my colleagues - as mentioned previously, some members of staff felt unable to voice their agreement due to the nature of this discussion and the fallout that often happens when not aligning with the dogma.

If not a separate category for trans/intersex/etc athletes - why not? And do you have an alternative suggestion for tackling this issue?

“A lot of the discourse around this subject seems very sensationalist, and I sometimes feel women’s voices are lost. There is a minority of gender-critical women online who monopolise the subject, but a lot of young women seem to support trans people having access to women’s spaces.”

Kathleen Stock seems incredibly reasonable and rational in her critiques of modern gender politics - what happened to her was awful and as a lesbian philosophy lecturer she seems more than qualified to talk on the subject.

Likewise, Maya Forstater and Helen Joyce make some very interesting points regarding the importance of female-only spaces and why sex matters.

You can check out their stuff at https://sex-matters.org if you are genuinely curious about how I have come to my conclusions on the issue.

I’m very open to having my mind changed should someone offer up credible arguments, but having spent quite a lot of personal time listening to all manner of people discussing this highly divisive subject, I’ve been more persuaded by their arguments than any of the opposing ones.

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9128

Either trans women are women and allowed to act like women or they’re not. It’s not very accepting to put them in their own category for sport.

I put this down to some people simply not being able to accept that ‘trans’ is a real thing.

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9129

I think if this thread shows us anything then I’d say that it is that this subject is nowhere near as black and white as that.

But that’s just another opinion in a sea of others.

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9130

I think it can be.

The way I think of it is that trans women are just women who were born male and have had help to transition back.

Trans men are men who were born female.

I like to keep it simple. Works for me :laughing:

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9131

For me its just about fairness… Biological males competing alongside biological females means that the overall pool of females are at a disadvantage - high-profile podium spots in cycling, swimming, etc have shown this to be the case.

If I were a female athlete and I happened to come say, 4th, in my chosen sport, whilst on the podium was a biological male, I’m sure I would feel an injustice had taken place.

I just lifted this from the organisation ‘Women In Sport’:

In September 2021, Women in Sport, issued a response to the Sports Councils’ extensive study into the issue of trans inclusion in sport. This high-quality report included a comprehensive review of the scientific literature by an expert sports medic. It concluded that the inclusion of trans women in female categories in most sports could not be balanced with fairness, and in some sports, safety.

The whole article is available here if you’re interested, its quite compelling Bot Verification

For what it’s worth, I sympathise greatly for anyone who feels as though they are suffering through a life in the wrong body. It must be awful and confusing and I won’t pretend to understand what that feels like.

That being said, I’m just not convinced that the answer is ‘just let trans men compete with women’.

“I like to keep it simple. Works for me :laughing:” - assuming that you are a man, of course that works for you - you’re not in danger of being meaningfully affected by it

9132

I am affected by it of course I am. I know trans people and I want to relate to them. That’s a way for me to relate.

What you are saying sounds very exclusionary. Is sport really that big a deal to you? If you were talking about breast feeding or something I’d probably give you more time but this just sounds like a way to excuse some pretty TERFy opinions.

Trans men don’t compete with women by the way, trans women compete with other women.

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9133

My mistake - that was a typo, obviously I meant ‘trans women’

9134

Obviously.

But that honestly takes me back to my original point “I put this down to some people simply not being able to accept that ‘trans’ is a real thing”.

I would recommend trying to think of trans women as women. A different type of woman, sure. One that was born a man, but a woman nonetheless.

It is a very easy thing to do and it makes this all much simpler. Drop the ‘biological males’ vs ‘biological females’ thing for a minute and try it.

9135

I think a man dismissing concerns around sport as “TERFy” is really dodgy and also lazy. I know plenty of women who are generally happy to live and let live but see it as an injustice. There’s no answers I can see that will not leave someone hard done by, though.

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9136

You are right, my argument is exclusionary.

I am arguing to exclude biological males from biological female sports - it’s not a particularly groundbreaking idea given that it’s the system we have had in place up until incredibly recently.

Not because I explicitly seek to exclude trans people, more because I think it’s important to maintain female-only spaces in the name of fairness, and safety.

I could say the same thing to you, that your argument is exclusionary, as it excludes biological women who speak out and feel strongly that having biological men in there spaces is not fair - I’d be interested to hear what it is you have to say about their rights?

9137

But what rights are they defending? The right to exclude other women? Because they don’t believe they are women?

9138

Ok, what term would you use for a trans excluding policy? Maybe we can drop the radical feminist bit?

9139

The right to female-only spaces

9140

Nope. Not at all.
Under various usernames, I’ve known Max for 20 years. I think people need to remember context. I don’t think I’ve ever gunned for him…although we’ve probably disagreed on topics, I’m sure.

Point being that I know this wasn’t made because of some awful views he holds. Hence pointing out the offending line and moving on.

Erm…I’m a moderator.
I get to do that.
No one needs to drag Max through it anymore. Point has been made. He chose a bad term. It’s done.

This isn’'t about conversation stifiling. You are welcome to talk about the trans subject (or any subject, really) as much as you like.
This is about drawing a line under people telling Max he was wrong and about moving on from a mistakenly chosen word.

I gotta add, though…You seemed to be fuelling the fire accusing folks of calling others bigots which is odd.

Please don’t accuse the people on here of labelling others of anything like this when it simply did not happen.

9141

This really doesn’t make much sense if you read it back…

Look, I get that trans people feel as though they are the opposite gender, and wish to be treated as such, and for the most part that’s totally fine- any respectable member of society, myself included, should go out of their way to accommodate people and try to make them feel accepted for who they want to be.

That’s not the issue.

It’s really just the fact that they are not women, despite wishing they were, and in certain contexts such as sports or prisons etc it complicates things because of obvious physical differences, and womens safety shouldn’t be discounted as a consequence of accommodating peoples desires.

If saying so makes me a bigot then that sucks, surely…

9142

…just going to take a moment to appreciate the fact that Warwick is no longer posting here…

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